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jox
Starting Member
Australia
2 Posts
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 Posted - 16/06/2009 :
12:15:18 AM 
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Hi I am new to the forum
and am wondering if there is anyone who has family tree research
done on Ellen Quinn's side of the Kelly clan. My Dad told me (a
fellow he met in Delegate NSW said) our Family is related to the
Kelly's through my great great grandmother Susannah Collins (nee
Quinn.)?
Sorry i was unsure if you could even direct me to someone...or a
web address.
I have dug back as far as I can go.... Thanks
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Joe.D
Advanced Member
Australia
364 Posts
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Posted - 16/06/2009 : 12:44:16 AM
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Welcome aboard Jox
Ellen Hollow would be your best contact, Ellen visits the forum
from time to time.....perhaps send her an email.
Joe.D |
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kellycountry2000
Forum Admin
Australia
437 Posts
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Ellen Hollow
Senior Member
Australia
32 Posts
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Posted - 16/06/2009 :
11:32:28 AM
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Sorry JOX, there is no
Susannah Quinn on the Family tree nor a Susannah Collins.
Ellen |
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carla
Average Member
Australia
15 Posts
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Posted - 16/06/2009 : 1:27:04 PM
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Hello Jox, Carla here. I
contacted Gary Dean at Ned Kellys World, - see
www.nedkellysworld.com.au
Gary said if you can find out more about the connection he may
be able to check it against his more upto date data file of the
Quinn family tree. We have an early version and as Ellen
indicates the records do not have a Collins listed. |
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Dave White
Advanced Member
Australia
303 Posts
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Posted - 16/06/2009 :
8:48:41 PM
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G'day and welcome JOX,
good to see that Ellen Hollow has provided your answer.
So many times I have had someone say they are related to Ned and
it is good to have Ellen to prove this one way or another. Dave. |
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jox
Starting Member
Australia
2 Posts
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Posted - 16/06/2009 : 11:20:58 PM
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Thank you very much for the quick replies. I have two very
excited boys who have done school projects on Ned Kelly. I
didn't let them use Grandpas info or put in any "possible" link
until I could prove it!!!! I bet they will have to take back a
few bragging rights!!!!!
Thank you all for your help
Cheers
Jox |
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Dave White
Advanced Member
Australia
303 Posts
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Posted - 17/06/2009 :
12:28:49 PM
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Don't anyone take this the
wrong way, but have you noticed that no one wants to be a
descendant of Dan, Joe or Steve in the same way they do of Ned?
How about the police? Then extending this further, it is Ned's
armour (or helmet) that sells, not the others. Sometimes I
wonder if Ned was the only one around in the 1800's. Dave. |
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nearly ned
Advanced Member
Australia
76 Posts
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Posted - 17/06/2009 :
2:42:05 PM
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Good point Dave. At the
Beechworth Historic Court-House we very rarely have someone come
in claiming a connection to Joe or Steve. We do have a fair few
people who claim a connection to the Police, Magistrates,
Barristers, Solicitor and even clerks of the Court.
Personally I think that Joe's helmet has the best design.
Steve's vision would have been better with the larger slot, but
it gave more of a target for the policeto aim at! |
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PaulOK
Average Member
9 Posts
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Posted - 17/06/2009 :
6:47:21 PM
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Dave and Nearly,
To the contrary, I know my relatives (Lola and Noeleen) can
speak for themselves but we are constantly bombarded by emails
of people claiming to be related to Steve Hart, Not only via my
Educational Business, but forwarded onto us via other websites
such as ironoutlaw.com
................... constantly sends me emails about "another
long lost relo" including all those emails from all the nutbags
out there, which there are plenty of I might say.
It's quite amusing but sometimes quite sad, when uncle oozywhat
or gramps toomanysherries has passed a family fib down the line.
and we bust the bubble, you would be surprised how WRONG..Lola,
Noeleen and Myself can be!
A recent one is a family in the US (Hart Surname) who's 8 year
old son had a striking resemblance to "Steve" they sent me a
photo and all to prove it.
It is astonishing how many try to claim some glimmer of tenure
to the story.
It takes quite a few emails and unfortunately phone calls to
puncture the family "secret", but apparently I have cousins
scattered all around the globe such as South Africa, new
Zealand, the NT, and numerous parts of Queensland! and poor
uncle Steve is buried in 12 different places.
Paul O'Keefe
Hart Descendant
P.S Nearly, drop the Irish accent! |
Edited by - PaulOK on 17/06/2009 7:29:52 PM |
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Dave White
Advanced Member
Australia
303 Posts
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Posted - 18/06/2009 :
11:24:32 AM
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Thanks Nearly Ned and our
'new member' PaulOK :)
This is what is good about a forum, as I had no idea that people
were stating a relationship to the ones Nearly Ned mentioned.
Naturally I know about the 'Hart' people you speak of Paul as I
have sent a few to you over the years as well, however overall
people seem to want to be related to Ned. With the female side
of the coin it appears they ask more about a relationship to
Kate rather than say Maggie. Just an observation. My point is
really how Ned is seen as against the others, Paul, you use
'Kelly Gang Educational' not say 'Steve Hart Educational' and
with good reason I might add. Most would not know who Steve or
Dan or Joe was, I think Joe is known these days because of actor
Orlando Bloom. Had he played Dan or Steve the situation might be
different. Dave. |
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bill denheld
Advanced Member
Australia
82 Posts
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captjack
Senior Member
25 Posts
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captjack
Senior Member
25 Posts
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Dave White
Advanced Member
Australia
303 Posts
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Posted - 18/06/2009 :
4:44:22 PM
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As an addition to my last
post re Kelly gang, I wonder if we had say Ned Kelly, Joe Byrne,
Steve Hart & Tom Lloyd (no Dan) would they still have been known
as 'The Kelly Gang' because of Ned? Dave. |
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PaulOK
Average Member
9 Posts
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Fitzy
Senior Member
Australia
49 Posts
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Posted - 18/06/2009 : 8:50:02 PM
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Geez, what did I miss?
Fitzy |
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alanros
Starting Member
Australia
1 Posts
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Posted - 18/06/2009 : 9:48:57 PM
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Fitzy, not much you old
sherry snorter. Seems someone's got their knickers in a twist
and spat the dummy. I must admit, i do drop in to the forum now
and again and have been tempted to join in on some of the
topics, but as you know, i am a shy young fellow and in awe of
the forum member's almost limitless knowledge on all things
Kelly. But who is this Mr Denhelp bloke, and why is he being so
nasty to Mr Webb? I've never met this fellow but he sounds a
very nasty chap to me. I've seen Mr Webb's Kelly site and i
think it's a fantastic resource. This other fellow seems to talk
about nothing but huts and fireplaces. And who was this well
known bloke who grabbed him by the throat? Crikey! i hope it
wasn't Mr Jones. So all i can say is whatever that O'Keefe bloke
said, i say... DITTO! |
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bill denheld
Advanced Member
Australia
82 Posts
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Posted - 19/06/2009 :
12:20:32 AM
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Yes seems someone has
their knickers in a twist and its not me.
In response to the pulling of a posting by the administrator on
this thread, I refer to an offending email received by me see
http://www.denheldid.com/twohuts/feedback.html I post
it here as the administrator does not wish for you to see this
material on this forum. The reason I want to share this with you
was because it contained intimidating content, and no one needs
this.
This offending email was responded to by fellow member CaptJack
who kindly twice posted his words but were also pulled from this
thread.
CaptJack and all, please protest this here your democratic
right to have your say. We are not the offenders, but are over
ruled by them. We have done no wrong. Have your say and drive
this thuggery from the Webb.
The reason for this posting is to draw your attention to last
year when ................... Webb of ironoutlaw.com.au
denigrates me and others regarding some newspaper stories about
Ned Kelly's DNA sampling, see
http://www.ironoutlaw.com/html/soap_box.html
................... Webb wrote -
quote:
What is in the water up at Ipswich? And why is this Tully
bloke still a city councillor? Why hasn't he retired after
all the millions he made starring in the movie Kenny? After
all, Tully looks more like that turd-flushing hero than the
actor Shane Jacobson does! Yes, Paul Tully (or Kenny Smyth),
is that self-same moron who claims to have Dan Kelly buried in
the local cemetery after his amazing escape from the Glenrowan
siege. Now Tully claims some plot in the Toowong Cemetery
holds the remains of Jack The Ripper. He's so keen to convince
the world this is Mr Ripper (God, it must have been a slow
news day when the papers picked this gem up) that he hasn't
even had time to convince himself. Especially if you go by
this quote from the above report, ' I don't think this is...
Jack the Ripper. But it can't be ruled out'. Really? Next
thing you know he'll be teeming up with dear old Bill Denheld*
and going on a two man crusade to remove all those 'pesky
facts' from our history pages. Actually, I can picture their
road show, much like Puppetry of the penis
http://www.puppetryofthepenis.com/
only these guys won't have to drop their strides for you to
see their private parts. Because Tully and Denheld are two
'knobs' that you can spot a mile off!
*In a recent article titled, Kelly boots 'burial clue'
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24228860-2862,00.html
Bill Denheld claims that Ned Kelly was adopted, because,
now-wait-for-it, some half demented distant relative of the
Kelly clan told him so. Must be true then!
With this sort of denigration, I decided to let visitors to this
website know that there are some weirdoes out there that do not
respect other researchers.
Then, I ask why do these people use such language ?? we are all
researching and debating historical truth.
And in response to ................... Webb and his denigration,
what else could I do but to ' either' remove his link (on
ironicon.com.au) or 'inform' my readers of his ill intent which
was the trigger for me to respond. see
http://www.ironicon.com.au/ironiconlinks.htm for Ned
Kelly: Australian Ironoutlaw webpage.
Mr Webb now wants me to remove links to his webpage. It would be
a pleasure to do so, but not before he removes his offending
Soap Box refernces linking people to his penis puppetry.
Bill Denheld
PS, and also PaulOK (on his forum posting) is perpetuating
................... Webb's intimidation by referring to an un
related incident involving an inebriated historian who prodded
me for referring to him in a press article as the responsible
historical consultant for the Glenrowan Siege site works stuff
up -and true too.
Obviously PaulOK and B.Webb are disciples of the eminent
historian.
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Fitzy
Senior Member
Australia
49 Posts
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Posted - 19/06/2009 : 12:21:33 AM
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G'day Alan, you old mule
skinner, fancy finding you here! I'm not sure what's going on,
but I see Bill has put a link where his post was deleted by the
anministrator. You might like to have a squizz at it.
Fitzy. |
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Sharon Hollingsworth
Advanced Member
USA
305 Posts
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Posted - 19/06/2009 :
06:55:01 AM
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Just to clear something
up, Captjack's remarks in support of Bill Denheld were not
removed by the administrator. It seems that Paul jumped to the
conclusion that Bill had removed his own post, but I knew better
as I had already done a cut and paste of the post in question as
I knew it would get removed before long and I wanted to keep a
record of it. I compared the edit timestamp and it was the same
when it was removed as when it was for an initial edit done
(fixing/changing what I don't know). So that proved to me that
Bill did not pull it. I guess others did not have that cut and
paste to compare to (but I had sent it to a few interested
parties after they wanted to know what they missed and pointed
out the timestamp). However, as I said, the supportive remarks
by Captjack were NOT removed by the administrator. At the time
of all this brouhaha I was in my regular daily chat with Captain
Jack and he was worried that his remarks answering a now
defunct/blank post did not make sense to future readers. But he
did not know how to edit a post so he gave me his password and
asked me to do it for him. I inserted the words "Nevermind" and
"Nevermind, again". Just wanted to set the record straight.
You know, things were going so well here at the forum that I
instinctively knew something was going to happen to turn over
the apple cart. It was too good to last!
I read over all the evidence, from the ironoutlaw bashing to
Bill's retaliation in his ironicon links remarks about
ironoutlaw.... to Brad's email to Bill, to Bill putting that on
forum and then Brad's supporters/friends Paul O'Keefe and Alan
Crichton weighing in with support of Brad of ironoutlaw....whew....I
feel like I am back in junior high school! He said/she said! And
not to count or discount everything that might have happened
prior to all of this!
I do consider Bill to be a genuinely nice person and have never
had a real problem with him at all and he has always been very
kind to me and very supportive both of me personally and my
writings. We are not in regular contact like some others down
under, but I do like to think of him as a friend. Whether or not
I believe in or support all his theories is beside the point.
I can say this to be fair, even though I never struck up a
friendship with Brad Webb (or had a desire to), he has never
been disrespectful or rude or mocking to me in any of my past
dealings with him in private email or in response to any of my
feedbacks to his site. I have not done any feedbacks nor had any
dealings with him in the past several years, though, as I found
other avenues to get my Kelly information out to the public. I
know that the mileage of others has varied greatly, though! ;)
However, I feel that Brad was wrong to be so nasty towards Bill
on his site (as I always say here, bash the ideas/theories you
don't like but don't bash the person who presented them)...and
maybe Bill should not have gotten down to the same level in
public retaliation on his links page, but it is hard to rise
above such abuse at times, believe me I know but we have to
think of the face we present to the viewing public as it
reflects back on the Kellys!...I think Bill should have
initially put his post on his own site and not brought it here
to the forum to draw possible disparaging comments and draw away
from the discussion at hand, and, thus, lowering the tone of the
forum and driving off those who have been drawn here by the high
quality debates of late (something along same lines happened
before at old forum.. seems to be a regular pattern!). My first
words to someone last night after seeing what all had been added
was "There goes the neighborhood!"
Maybe I have set myself up as a target, but at least I have a
wall of water (a really big ocean) between me and them and they
can never literally get their hands around my throat....unless
they buy an expensive plane ticket and take a really long drive
and can get past a couple of dogs! ;)
Hey, Dave, you better cancel the ticket you were going to send
me! :)
Waffle over, now back to regularly scheduled programming...
Sharon
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Dave White
Advanced Member
Australia
303 Posts
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Posted - 19/06/2009 :
09:48:23 AM
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In order to save Bruce'e
fine forum from destruction lets just keep moving along shall
we? Almost everyone has had a shot at or wanted to argue/whak/strangle
me over the years (and most have ended up good mates) but if we
want to discuss/learn about this Kelly saga we just have to rise
above and keep on keeping on. The politics in all this is so
high that perhaps we should be running for government!
Seriously, for the sake of the newer folk keen to learn about
'Ned' can we just stick to that and leave the fighting on the
respective websites.
You do realise that the paddock where Ned fought Wright is still
there, maybe it can be used again.:)
As for your ticket Sharon, I still have to win that jackpot but
I do have body armour here at work so we can suit you up if you
are worried. Dave. |
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captjack
Senior Member
25 Posts
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Posted - 19/06/2009 :
2:33:11 PM
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Ah well I suppose it has
come to this!!
Hello to all!
And thankyou to the ever helpful Sharon for the explanation re
my posts! I am skilled at semaphore and morse but new technology
makes me seem old sometimes.
I found myself talking about nothing after the post was removed,
nor did I have the full story, so it was important to remove as
it made absolutly no sense whatsoever! Normal for Jack really.
BUT! What I did write was the wisdom of Johnny cash " Sometimes
when people hate you, that's a good thing" Which has always
given me comfort as my scurvy crew always gag me and tie me to
the mast and pour wax in their ears so not to hear me prattle on
about Ned!
Good to see Al at the forum for some more colour and movement,
and why would anyone want to throttle you Dave? Keep up the
great work at your site too!
I am merrily unaligned and enjoy the work of both combatants!
But surely we should harness such unbridled passion for good
instead of evil.
It would be a tragedy and a travesty if these 2 noted Kellyites
were to stage a reenactment of a grudge match between Tex
MacKenzie and Skull Murphy ( I am really showing my age - I
remember Jack Little - whoa!) as Alex McDermott sticks it to the
Kellys - who could point and say " See - that's what they were
like"
There are bigger battles to be fought than amongst ourselves -
the Right has been systematically trying to rewrite the story of
Ned Kelly for over a decade and they have the clout and the
newspaper space that we will never have.
And besides it is the 100th birthday of one of my favourite
Australians tomorrow - Errol Flynn, sport! So let's channel the
devil may care larrakin spirit of Errol, and celebrate our
common interests andnot argue amongst ourselves over who has the
biggest Ned!
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marcus
Advanced Member
Australia
165 Posts
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Posted - 19/06/2009 :
2:33:39 PM
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All,
It's a pity that this forum has stooped to this level.
What's with all the attitude people.
Having witnessed Ian Jones interaction with Bill, it was not as
described in this post. A heavy handed shove to the shoulder and
a couple of expletives (non of which as suggested).
Anyways, I'm over all this 'my Ned Kelly's bigger than yours'
Marcus
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kellycountry2000
Forum Admin
Australia
437 Posts
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Posted - 19/06/2009 :
3:00:09 PM
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I would like to remind
everybody of the simple rules of this forum I removed bills post
because it broke the rules I will not allow hate mail on this
site.
This is a free service and the rules WILL be
obeyed, as all posts are expected to be read by children.
1. All posts will be moderated.
2. In this forum, Free speech means, At all times be civil,
there will be no swearing, slander or offensive posts.
3. In the event of a user being a nuisance to other users they
will be banned.
4. If a complaint is made about the content
of a post , the post will be dealt with by being edited or
deleted.
5.These rules will be modified from time to time as the need
arises.
6. Remember people the eyes of the world are upon you,
reputations and opinions of YOU will be won and lost with what
you all write here.
7.If you have personal issues with other
people DO NOT bring them here
8 IF you object to something that has been written, in the first
instance email the author and request them to edit their post,
if they will not, email me direct and i will moderate or delete
their post
8.These rules are very simple, If you don’t like them don’t use
the forum |
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Dave White
Advanced Member
Australia
303 Posts
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 Posted - 19/06/2009 :
4:43:19 PM
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It is probably worth
remembering that this is after all a forum, find me a forum
where people are not arguing and I will give you all the coins
in my pocket. When you have so many strong personalities
combined with the fact that one cannot fully gauge the tone of
the writer it is easy for things to get out of hand. The big
plus here is that at least we know who is posting and they are
not hiding behind ‘fake names’ (no offence Capt Jack I do not
refer to you) I mean when someone has a shot at me elsewhere I
do not know who they really are and that annoys the hell out of
me. So do not give up posting just because of this latest
disagreement. (plus I need to catch Joe in the number of posts)
The question Capt Jack should not be who would want to throttle
me but rather who would not. (my wife says I deserve it anyway)
Well that was my ten cents worth and I expect payment soon.
Dave. |
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PaulOK
Average Member
9 Posts
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Posted - 20/06/2009 :
4:50:50 PM
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Dave,
It is good to see things have settled down some what...phew!!!
I must be mistaken but arn't you Capt Jack too?...lol :)
Paul
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Sharon Hollingsworth
Advanced Member
USA
305 Posts
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PaulOK
Average Member
9 Posts
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Posted - 21/06/2009 :
09:48:23 AM
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Hi Sharon,
When i made the comment
Dave,
It is good to see things have settled down some what...phew!!!
I must be mistaken but arn't you Capt Jack too?...lol :)
Sorry Sharon but my tongue was firmly planted in my cheek when i
made the posting!
Maybe the translation got lost going across the Pacific!!
Paul
P.S this thread is like playing join the.........
dots...........in parts
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Sharon Hollingsworth
Advanced Member
USA
305 Posts
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Posted - 21/06/2009 :
10:22:41 AM
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Oh, ok...sorry about the
confusion! is one of the hazards of posting on forums, we cannot
see facial expressions or get tone of voice. :)
As I said, one time Bill did say that Dave White was Capt Jack
and I had to let him know that the two were not the same.
I recall the one time at old forum when I was "Sharon in the
USA" and someone gave me a mortal fit over me using a pseudonym!
DUH!!!! Everyone knew who I was! But seems not all know who Jack
is, but some do! ;)
Sharon
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Dave White
Advanced Member
Australia
303 Posts
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Posted - 21/06/2009 :
1:29:15 PM
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Why do people think I am
Captain Jack? I was Army he was Navy.
He is smart I am................well you get the point:)
Actually I wish he was me as he is very funny and articulate
indeed.
What did I say about how one can be confused due to the 'tone'
of the text or lack of it. Regardless I think you know what I
mean. Dave |
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carla
Average Member
Australia
15 Posts
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Posted - 21/06/2009 :
4:41:41 PM
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Hi Jox and all,
First of all, sorry Jox that your first posting turned to
debacle. I feel that my posting was the cause of the unfortunate
out come, and feel oblige to explain.
There was some good advise but I was saddened by Ellen Hollow,
it was good of her to answer so promptly, but not a word of
encouragement for you to continue to go on., that is the reason
I put you on to Gary Dean. He is also an authority on the Kelly
gang descendants because he gets to speak to many of them.
I personally enjoy looking at family trees, especially on early
monarchy. I have never put one together but it seems very
worthwhile to do so and who knows I may give it a try one day.
So don't give up it does not matter if you are related or not
and who knows what you might find, as an example forum member
Peter McGarrigle found out not that long ago that he is a
descendant and a distant cousin to PaulOK.
And this now brings me back to the problem of my posting and
then Paul's after that, he pointed out he had spoken to B.Webb,
and I know both of them don't like my husband Bill, and that
prompted B.Webb to send Bill that terrible threatening email. I
can tell you I was shocked and advised Bill to post it on the
forum to let every one know what he had sent and also as proof
if any thing did ever happen. The forum posting was partly
censored by the forum text screening of the offending words .
Some said Bill should have put it on his own web site, and that
may be so, we have never used offensive language or been
aggressive on the forum or any were else. The forum has his
rules and I agree with them , but what is the difference of
putting it on the forum or putting a link on the forum to a web
page for young people to click on as well, and while I am at it,
the offensive language Paul used and he being a Kelly educator
to children ! plus tells lies that Marcus caught him out on, and
like Marcus said we where standing and talking on the landing
when Mr Ian Jones came through the doorway and gave Bill a shove
to the shoulder and said ' stay out of my way', he must of had a
glass to many and under other circumstances he may have been
more cordial.
The unfortunate incident of Mr Jones shoving Bill seems to have
triggered an anti Bill campaign by a few members of the Kelly
community intent on demeaning him.
Carla
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PaulOK
Average Member
9 Posts
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Posted - 21/06/2009 :
6:42:27 PM
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I thought this thread was
over?
OMG, obviously not.
Don't think my wife is interested in posting at this stage..will
have to ask her.
Anyway,
Bill should of kept this altercation between both of them on
each others sites....and that was my point!
And to clarify I don't dislike your husband AT ALL. I have
spoken/emailed/met him many times, and met yourself on many
occasions.
I dont think i have been rude or mean to him in any regard at
any of those occasions. (the only mean thing was i razzed him
about not drinking beer) I have also defended Bill in a few
instances over the years ( SBC shootout for one, which i like)
I don't know how Bill thinks I am some devout desciple of Ian's?
anyone who know me, knows I don't agree with some of Ian's work
on a few subjects and have told him so to his face. (we can
agree to disagree) I have even questioned the authenticity of
Ian's Joe Byrne photo's on Ironoutlaw so is this devotions?? I
don't think so. I have the upmost respect for Ian, who has
helped elevate one way or another Ned and the Boys that no one
else has right, wrong or indifferent and i dare say some
forumites would not be on here if it wasn't for Mr Jones and his
books/series and doco's.
Bill goes off half cocked. eg Ian Jones- Glenrowan
Beutifications. Dave White- Stringbark Creek, being Capt Jack.
Edna- etc etc.
When he posted private email correspondence using the word
starting the letter after B and before D to address a personal
issue between two grown blokes on the forum.
The only time i contacted Brad Webb was AFTER Bill posting on
the forum, not before, which was also after i had posted my
reply.
Yes i defended Brad as i call him a mate (mates do that) It's an
Australian thing
I am sorry to use the word "Balls", I hope i didn't offend
anyone especially kids and hope tis is not a blackmark against
me as a Kelly Educator to children (better stay away from the
Jerilderie Letter- shall I?)
And me being a liar!!!...please ok by the throat/shove
whatever...I know what i saw. He wanted to punch the bejeezus
(is this a swear word?)out of Bill and it was ugly and spoilt
the night but i will swear on a stack of bibles he wasn't
DRUNK!!! ( oh..i might be lying)
And you last point this incident happened 3 years ago this
August, and now all of a sudden there's an anti Bill
campaign....huh???
Carla, tell him he's been a naughty boy, and to go to his room
and don't do it again!
Paul
edited a typo
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Edited by - PaulOK on 21/06/2009 7:00:58 PM |
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carla
Average Member
Australia
15 Posts
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Posted - 21/06/2009 :
8:39:21 PM
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Paul,
Your third line, " I don't think my wife is interested in
posting at this stage......will have to ask her "
Paul you are a piece of work, again shows your denigration of
your wife and me.
Again you have shot yourself in the foot. You are supposed to be
a child educator and you cannot make an educated response.
No Paul, Brad Webb emailed Bill just recently. You bring up an
incident that had nothing to do with this thread i.e., Mr Ian
Jones making a fool of himself shoving Bill while we were all
having a good time. And after this event you turned it on us
which shows your insincerity. This shows your bigoted manner.
This anti Bill campaign has been on going since your last entry
onto a KC2000 forum which caused it to collapse.
You should behave like a real educator.
Carla |
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