Edited by - bill denheld on 02/06/2008 7:10:27 PM

Edited by - Sheila Hutchinson on 04/06/2008 8:39:36 PM

For those who are unfamiliar with the story, most of this below comes from my Two Huts at Stringybark Creek research, and I certainly have always invited discussion / debate ever since I first posted the two huts webpage at www.ironicon.com.au
Its fair enough to have a debate if the opposing view carries some weight.

I stumbled across the fireplace of one hut in September 2002 while at Stringybark Ck with Gary Dean in the bush nearby. I called out to him to come over and take a look at this. Then the following week not far away I found a second fireplace of a hut. But prior to that, the only real evidence of a hut at Stringybark Creek was in the image of the Burman Photo that was commissioned by the Victorian Police of the 'murder scene' at Stringybark Ck in Oct 1878. This image showing two blackened burnt corner posts of what looks to have been a hut site. see McMenomy's book.

So, with the finding of two hut sites now we know there were three huts, but unless the two posts in the Burman photo were from a 'tent frame' used by the police?

We know that at the time Melbourne news papers reported the police had camped 'near the ruins of two small huts'.

About six months later G Wilson Hall wrote his Outlaws of the Wombat Ranges book where in he wrote -
“The spot where they established their halt, was a small clearing on the rise alongside of the creek near the ruins of two small huts, one of which was burnt down and had been the temporary residence of three prospectors, Reynolds, Bromfield and Lynch who worked the creek for a short time with indifferent success.”

So we know the police pitched their tent on a rise besides the creek where there also happens to be a lower side on the other side of the creek where there are the remains of two small huts. These are the huts fireplaces that have been found.

In Dave's scenario the police would have camped 'amidst' or next to the two huts - which GW Hall states was not the case.

We also learn the two huts on the lower level on the West bank of the creek, were occupied by three prospectors- Reynolds, Bromfield and Lynch.

We also know from Sheila's research that Lynch was charged with burning down Percy Bromfield's hut some 15 months before the shootings, and a court witness was non other than Sergeant Kennedy himself.

This hut burning court case could have been either the hut in the Burman photo or one of the two huts on the western bank?

However, the following Para is just supposition ; With in the party there was obviously trouble in the camp, and as a result, it looks like Bromfield had build himself a new hut possibly right over where the gold lead was going,( under the area where the police later camped), then maybe Lynch saw this as a threat to his patch and lively hood and in a fit of anger decided to burnt it down. I believe this may have happened as evident of a burnt hut in the Burman photo, and the two blackened posts are the remains of Bromfield's hut. I say this because if it was a new hut, then new wood would have been used, and new wood does not want to burn in an upright position.

But not to get confused with Bromfield's hut burning, as before I said, maybe the two posts were part of the frame for the police tent that the Kellys burnt down when they left the scene after the shootings? I leave this for you to think about.

But what about the Shingle Hut.! . Ian Jones in his books does not make much sense of the past as he writes- of the police " they headed towards some gold diggings near a derelict Shingle hut on Stringybark Creek" where they camped.

Dave, You refer to a Shingle Bark Hut ? you should know a bark hut is a bark hut and a Shingle hut is made of split timbers like weather boards over lapping.

When Ned referrers to the Shingle hut in his Jerilderie he means the place Stringybark Ck. So we know the Shingle hut must have been standing because you would not refer to the place without a shingle hut being there. When the first surveyor came through and plotted the only standing hut there he would have noticed the remains of the other hut fireplace closeby but this did not constitute a hut, so he did not mark it.

The surveyor carefully drew a small rectangle orientated with the creek (North South) and wrote "Hut", and on the other side of the creek, - "Scene of the Police murders by the Kelly Gang"

The other huts fireplace is orientated at 90% to the creek. So we can conclude from the investigations WE have made there that the larger of the two was most likely the Shingle hut.

Sheila reckons the two huts were miners huts but as she knows, miners may not have time to build Shingle built huts if they only intend to dig out the gold and move on. In Sheila's beaut book 'Heritage and History on my doorstep' she devotes several chapters to mining records that start around 1869. So when the police camped at Stringybark Ck in 1878, it is hard to believe that newly built miners huts would be described as ruined (by age) if they had been there for such a short period.

However we have recent / new evidence of the two huts. When I was researching my two huts story at ironicon.com.au In 2003 I visited a lady who is the Great G Granddaughter of Ewan Tolmie. She has the dozen small photos- one of which is of Kelly camp of 1883.

Later discussions with her and Sheila regarding the boundary of Dueran and Hollands Ck Run and Fern Hills Station revealed Stringybark Creek was in fact on Fern Hills and not Hollands Ck Run as previously thought.
Amongst her files she produced the transcript of a letter dated June 11- 1860.

The letter regarding a boundary dispute between an adjoining land owner and the lease holder of Fern Hills Station on which Stringybark Ck is situated, one is writing to the Registrar - the other is trying to claim a portion of ground forming the boundary between Dueran Run and Fern Hills. So we know we are talking about the southern most boundary of Fern Hills station not far from Stringybark Ck.

The letter states- "In the tracing furnished to me by the survey office in 1858 the fall of the water is defined as the boundary – which are the remains of Two Huts erected by Messrs Heape and Grice, the former lessees of Fern Hills Station, and where they always kept flocks of sheep".

The original lessees Heape and Grice built the huts in 1848
(according to the Lease holders book ‘Victorian Squatters’ by Spreadwell and Anderson.)

So we can conclude these shepherd huts were better built than short term miners Bark huts and they offering long term shelter for the land owners.

As Ned Kelly referred to the ‘shingle hut’ at Stringybark Creek we simply have to believe one fireplace found belonged to the hut built by sheep keeping owners Heape and Grice - as early as 1848.

There is no evidence, but the original Shingle hut/s would have been occupied many more times by prospectors and even rebuilt from time to time after the shootings and that the first land title holder over that land ' Robert McCrum could also have used the Shingle hut. Maybe this was McCrum's first dwelling at Stringybark Creek road? See Sheila's webpage at http://www.ironicon.com.au/validlinks.htm

Edited to include- 'of the past' But what about the Shingle Hut.! . Ian Jones in his books does not make much sense of the past as he writes- of the police " they headed towards some gold diggings near a derelict Shingle hut on Stringybark Creek" where they camped.

 

Edited by - bill denheld on 08/06/2008 08:25:20 AM

Edited by - bill denheld on 30/12/2008 12:48:07 PM

For those interested in the works being carried out at Stringybark Ck, for the first time I include a map below showing the police camp and walking track being part of the Stringybark Creek experience. This is the result of five years lobbying the DSE to tell the truth about this very special place in the Kelly story. However this move has been resisted by Ian Jones with his obvious influence over the authorities.

The authorities, realising people demand to know the truth must allow all visitors as it is public land and public monies being spent. However, even now Ian Jones still does not concede the two old huts fireplaces located near the police camp site are those that G W Hall wrote about in 1879. Seems he would rather muddy the waters and shoot himself in the foot, than to concede he may be wrong.

It is understood we all have a view and if a history can be proven incorrect they are free to do so. We are all waiting for that alternative view with this pending debate initiated by Dave White. I believe I have provided more than enough historical proof of the true location of the police camp site, to allow the authorities to draw up their plans as below. Notice there is no mention of the 'two huts' site directly opposite the police camp site because Ian Jones said not to show them! However, we are allowed to go to the site now but we are not allowed to know why this is the true site, re the fireplaces !



Here is what Ian Jones's 2008 edition 'Ned Kelly A Short Life' says about my two huts research on page 443 -
 

quote:

---

Two fireplaces, on the Western bank of Stringybark Creek opposite the Gunfight site, have been given inappropriate significance since 2003. ( see Age 10/2/03 ) No contemporary source refers to them. A second ruined hut mentioned by G Wilson Hall in 1879 ( Mansfield Pamphlet, P24) some distance to the north of the site, was identified in 2006 by Dave Wilson & Dave Brown.” - PS (Wilson is type error for White

---

By this statement he is determined to continue to denigrate the importance of fireplaces found. And Jones implicates Dave.

So here we have Dave White locating another hut site, and telling Ian Jones about this - and giving Jones a possible alternative in the hope to prove my findings wrong - and he publishes this historically confusing mis-truth, in his 2008 edition - which is a private enterprise book promoted on public land on the Stringybark Ck story boards.

Dave believes he is onto something and on posting 3/6/2008 on this page thread he writes-

quote:

---

- - - - The two huts relevant in my opinion are the ruined (burnt) Reynolds, Bromfield & Lynch's hut which is right on the police campsite and the second hut is the one shown on the 1884 survey map.
So to sum this up, I believe that the two huts mentioned by G Wilson Hall are the hut in the middle of the police camp(1) and hut (2)marked on the survey map of 1884. - - - - - - Perhaps I will be shot down in flames here, but it is worth a debate. Dave.

---

That's all fair enough if there is substance to the theory !
As Dave will testify, there has been no evidence of a hut site (as depicted by two blackened posts in the Burman photo) directly on the police camp site. He should know because he helped metal detect for that, and also he detected the 'two huts site' on the western bank, from which he is in possession of some items, but he refuses to furnish photos of these important items. Let it be known, as self appointed guardian of all those items detected at Stringybark Ck it is my duty by law (Heritage Victoria) to keep track of them all for later combination.

OK, then lets ask Dave, - if he believes (1) hut was in the middle of the Police camp site, then where does he place the second hut as marked on the survey map of 1884 and how does this tie in with Ian Jones's reference to this hut identification in 2006 some distance to the north? ?(please show us all where on the map, North is to the right of the map Dave!

Naturally, Dave will be reluctant to divulge ( pin point) this location, but if he doesn't I will later.
But lets give Dave the opportunity share his theory first?

For those who do not know G Wilson Hall's The Outlaws of the Wombat Ranges,1879 Page 24 -

Hall wrote - about the police camp

quote:

---

“The spot where they established their halt, was a small clearing on a rise alongside of the creek, near the ruins of two small huts, one of which was burnt down, and had been the temporary residence of three prospectors, named Reynolds, Bromfield and Lynch, who worked the creek for a short time with indifferent success.”

---

G.Wilson Hall does not mention a second hut at all, he simply states the police camped " near the ruins of two small huts",
There is also mention in the Argus of 28 October 1878 of where the police pitched their tent - "near the ruins of two huts"

The fireplaces of these two small huts are located near the police camp area , and their existence proves where the police had camped at Stringybark Creek in Oct 1878 - just as The- Argus and GW Hall states.

Jones' book Notes paragraph does nothing to bring clarity, -rather to confuse the reader into believing that his print version of events is complete and correct - when clearly they are not.

From all historical records there is no mention of the huts being separated by any distance or North of the site. Unlike bad, good history is always underpinned by truth and the facts.

Edited by - bill denheld on 17/01/2009 08:58:59 AM

With this Statement Jones attempts to muddy the waters to discredit my work and the two huts at Stringybark Creek.
He also said similar in his 2003 edition, so he is determined to have it his way !

What makes his book notes even more vindictive is that my research was deliberately Excluded from the (SRG) ' Stakeholders Reference Group', ( has been referred to as Stringybark R.G.).

First they set up the ( PCB ) 'Project Control Board' consisting of representatives of DSE, and the Ned Kelly Touring Route- of which Ian Jones is the historical consultant. A public notice was published in local northern papers (I live in Melbourne so don't get these).
The article asked for interested parties as 'stakeholders'. These stakeholders could be tour operators, historical societies or anyone with a keen interest in the Kelly story.

Mansfield Historical Society member Sheila Hutchinson told me SRG was by invitation only, yet being a member of MHS I did not get invited, even though it was ' me ' that initiated the opening up of the Police Camp at Stringybark Creek, that Jones resists I think because he resents anyone else making moves without his full approval.

At the offset, DSE said they were to keep me in the loop of any developments there, - and say they did not intentionally exclude me from the process, but by doing so, decisions for Stringybark Ck were formed by people with an agenda not to be seen to be historically incorrect.

Failure by the Authorities,- PCB, and SRG to examine all the facts, i.e.; verification of all old map details, the plotted locations of marked huts on the ground and by comparison with the only other factual clue - the 'Burman photo' - have resulted in uncertainty for the police camp location. This failure was deliberate denigration of my work so that the two fireplaces would be ignored by the authorities.

If this omission was based on evidence presented to the 'SRG' , then Sheila Hutchinson's webpage together with Jones' support ensured the two huts proving the police camp would be torpedoed.

But all is not what it seems -

Jones now believes a hut site identified by Dave White north of the Stringybark reserve is " The Hut on The Map"
Sheila Hutchinson at http://www.ironicon.com.au/validlinks.htm believes Jones may be right because since 2005, she and fellow researcher Fay Johnson shows two 1885 maps with a hut and inscriptions referring to the police killed by the Kellys.

Calculations by me years ago, and using the scale from the maps I accurately measured the distances from a common datum point - the junction of Ryans and Stringybark Creeks with GPS.

The first map I refer to is 1884

Here we have the hut on the map detail. You will notice the creek meets Ryans Ck on the very top margin of this image.
A proper scale off the big map was used to measure the distance from the hut to the junction. The distance is 804.68 metres.

A second map as shown at Valid Links below shows the detailed surveyors notes and note the top boundary crossing the junction of the two creeks.


Note, this map from Valid Links is copyright to Public Records Office Victoria, citation -
Land Selection Files: VPRS: 626/P Unit 645, File 19279/19.20:

There is a red an arrow pointing to a hut near the upside-down text. The distance of this hut from the junction is 645.8 metres.

The difference between 804.68 and 645.8 metres is about 160 metres. This proves they are two different hut sites, otherwise how can the surveyors get this so wrong if these are the same hut location?

On the 1885 McCrums allotment the hut is 645.8 and close to the same location as Dave's hut fireplace identified in 2006. This is about 35 metres north of the Stringybark reserve fence line. The 1884 hut on the map is plotted 160 metres further south up the creek.

When we compare these on the ground locations with the Burman photo neither locations can be seen to match the photo for terrain - again proving these hut sites as negative locations.

Below, I refer to the 1885 New Roads map tracing over the 1884 vacant land map. The tracing is from Valid Links webpage
The hut on the map was placed on the first map without any references to boundaries. The 1885 tracing over the 1884 map included the Scene of the murder site, - but this did not mean the scene of the Murders had occurred on McCrum's land at all !
The surveyor marked the hut site on the western bank of the creek , and on the other side of the creek the notation " Scene of the Police murders by the Kelly gang"

This hut was standing when he visited the area prior to and during 1884 when the map was dated. He must have been shown the 'murder scene' as marked by an existing hut, but he did not mark any burnt down huts. The accuracy of his hut plot was not an issue until the first land allotment over the area revealed there was no hut site near McCrums southern boundary.

The reason this Hut and Inscription appears on McCrums allotment is because the land office simply traced the boundary lines over the very first vacant land 1884 map of the area. Assumedly, at the lands office they would not have know of any inaccuracy of the Hut plotted associated with the ' Scene of the police murders'.

The true location of the Scene of the Murders was in fact 205 metres south from the original 'hut on the map' near the ruins of two small huts as reported by the Argus Nov 1878 and GW Hall in 1879.

I now refer to you the DSE development map that Ian Jones controlled -not show the two huts near the police camp.
Notes-
A True site of the Shingle Hut B The Hut plotted on the first map 1884 C Dave White's identified hut after the fires 2006 D Fireplace of second hut E Southern boundary of McCrums allotment F Wire fence? maybe McCrums 1885+ G Wire fence? maybe Beasley's H Hut site as on McCrums allotment within S/bark reserve I Where old horse track ( bridle track) is being covered over J New walking track K Old horse track L Recognised Police camp of 1878 M The swamp McIntyre crossed to escape the scene N Original location of the Kelly tree O Place of the second Kelly tree P junction means where Stringybark Ck joins Ryans Creek

As a foot note to this posting -

Maybe Sheila can be forgiven for simply following her belief that all historical documents 'must be true'
and Dave White can be forgiven for not taking part in the debate because he simply does not know, but he cannot be forgiven for his insincerity by non reply, but as for Ian Jones - you be the judge.

END

Edited by - bill denheld on 24/01/2009 6:30:47 PM