Horrie
Guest

Post by Guest on Mar 27, 2014 at 1:27pm

Kelvyn, you are a dreadful old gasbag. You and Glenn have done everything except put up your findings.

Endless dictionary definitions and now movies about how springs work - but no location for your spring. Does it even exist?

Your paranoid ramblings about Bill's name and whether he and I are in 'cahoots' are more distractions designed to mislead and deceive.

Go and jump in Lake Mokoan!


 

bill
Junior Member

Post by bill on Mar 27, 2014 at 1:30pm

Does that You-Tube video that clever Kel put up remind you something ?

Here is the link - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdO3HZLDUcQ
( note, the above video Kelvyn put up on previous page corresponds exactly with the image below
 

This image was first posted Page 1 and then Page 12, of this forum.
I think the CSI team now get it ?


Glenn wanted us readers to go to another 'closed shop' forum where Joe-y triumphantly hammers home that SBC is a creek and not a spring. Then puts up this self defeating- You-Tube video that clever Kel now posts thanking jeoy for his "most erudite and appropriate" aw inspiring information on what is a spring.

Kel, You are showing your paranoia. That video is without doubt the best thing you have put up so far. Thanks for that.

Glenn,
You wrote -Quote- " I find it interesting that even though he was a first hand witness, McIntyre’s diagrams, descriptions etc can be totally dismissed as they do not fit the two fireplace site."

McIntyre's map is not totally dismissed. The issue is when did McIntyre draw his map? If it was drawn just in time for the Beechworth committal hearing 23 months later it certainly is not primary source material, neither would it be if he drew it six months after the event just as with Kelly's explanation letter is not Primary source.

The fact is, on his map he has a tent and two logs that you say are the same logs as in the Burman photos. That is the mistake you and the CSI team keep making. It could even be argued (and I do) that McIntyre constructed his map from his basic memory, but he had to make sure it fitted in with the Burman photo as both would be exhibits in court.

The Burman photos are primary source, while Mc's map is secondary.

Then Your thought. "Is the spring is “primary” or “secondary” evidence."
In the scheme of things, the mention of a 'Spring' by Ned in the Jerilderie letter 6 months after the event is secondary source material. However, the Spring remains a crucial part of the evidence.

This discussion about whether SBC is a Spring is about the same as arguing over whether a Track is a Street is a Road is a Highway, just as a Spring is a Creek is a River!

To carry on about SBC not being a Spring is a hollow argument because the fact spring water feeds the creek from higher up just means the water in the creek is 'spring water' that flows along the creek.

Ned Kelly referred to SBC as -
1, the police were camped at the Shingle hut.
2, he sent Dan back to the Spring to check if the troopers would come in that way--  ( the Kellys came from up the creek so Dan went back from where they came)
3, Ned wrote - 'but soon heard them coming up the creek.

So here we have Ned Kelly referring the shingle hut, a spring, and the troopers coming up the creek.

What is important is to identify exactly where the police had camped, and this can be partly determined by secondary source material when Ned Kelly said he sent Dan back to the spring. All we are interested in is the terminology that was used to describe the scene, not whether technically it was a creek or a spring.

If you Google- Hepburn Springs, maps, you will see Wildcat Gully, Argyle Gully, Welshmans Gully etc etc and Spring Creek.

Stringybark Creek was just named by someone in the Lands department of the time,
It could have been called Stringybark Gully because most of it is just a gully with no surface running water, it's only at the point of where water comes from the ground called a spring, and from there on we call it a creek simple as that.

Last Edit: Mar 27, 2014 at 1:36pm by bill

Brendon
Guest

Post by Guest on Mar 27, 2014 at 2:11pm

Have you been googling again Horrie. Lake Mokoan was drained several years ago. Maybe you should jump on a flight and come over and inspect the 'spring'. I will give you a guided tour.





 

Brendon
Guest

Post by Guest on Mar 27, 2014 at 2:18pm

1. Bill, there is the remains of a hut at the SBC site, did you know that? How do you know this was not the 'shingle hut'?
2. Sending Dan back to the 'spring is to the south and on higher ground and gives a good view in all directions.
3. "Ned wrote - 'but soon heard them coming up the creek." That's right Bill, coming 'up the creek' is heading south!

If the police came from the south as you suggest, they would coming DOWN the creek!

bill
Junior Member

Post by bill on Mar 27, 2014 at 3:25pm

Brendan,
You wrote - " 2. Sending Dan back to the 'spring is to the south and on higher ground and gives a good view in all directions."

Consider this-
The Herald 5 November 1878 wrote - about the Kelly's coming into the police camp (from the south)

" Having reached the gum- tree from the bush, the hill (slope south of the two huts) hid their approach to the clump of scrub mentioned"  - behind which the Kelly gang were able to hide while waiting for the returning police, when Ned suggested to Dan to go back to the spring, to keep lookout for the troopers in case they came in from that direction.

From where the police were camped, the little hill 'slope' obscures any visibility to the south or - up the creek. That’s why Dan had to go around the little hill up the steep ravine of the creek to the spring where obviously visibility would be better.

See my document at www.ironicon.com.au  
page 37, item 17

PS, One of the fireplace's HUTS was probably the shingle hut Ned referred to.

Last Edit: Mar 27, 2014 at 6:43pm by bill: hide

Horrie
Guest

Post by Guest on Mar 27, 2014 at 3:30pm

Brendon, why do you think I wanted Kelvyn to jump into Lake Mokoan - hopefully head first.

 

Brendon
Guest

Post by Guest on Mar 27, 2014 at 4:18pm

Bill, the secret lies in 'go back' to the spring. 'Go Back', from whence they came! And approaching from the south, the little hill would have hidden their approach.

PS. Nice try Horrie............



 

Kelvyn
Guest

Post by Guest on Mar 27, 2014 at 4:30pm

Brendon, thanks for the attempt but as you can see its like talking to a couple of bags of wet sand.

Oh Horrie, its most gratifying to see that you got over your head problem and have had a sip of idiot tea or something else to revive your limited intellect, so that you can continue your quest for a knighthood of nuttiness.
You didn't take heed of an earlier statement that if crackpots, acolytes, or simply those with a bent to post rubbish stopped with the inane and parroted repetitive nonsensical clap trap then I too would refrain.
I've checked the depth meter and you are doing a good job ensuring the cesspit's level of excrement is now approaching the full mark.
Be wary as it will soon run over (the cup you perhaps sup from?) and the poor moderator/creator will need to wonder what next to do about this ever increasing irrelevant forum.
This seems to be something that follows particular posters.
I have given this forum's link to those with Myers-Briggs competency to get an opinion of personality type.
Keep watching as the results may offer you a chance to improve your ?

Horrie
Guest

Post by Guest on Mar 27, 2014 at 4:44pm

On the basis of Kelvyn's latest meaningless post, I rest my case, M'Lud!



 

Kelvyn
Guest

Post by Guest on Mar 27, 2014 at 5:18pm

Thanks Horrie. Now the forum may get back to some normality
 

bill
Junior Member

Post by bill on Mar 27, 2014 at 6:34pm

Kelvyn,
I have no problem addressing you properly by name.
Why do you have a problem addressing me with BD, Billo Willie, Wilhelm, William. or worse?

I can just see your hand slapping the bench throwing your head back and re slapping the bench every time again and again as a child having a tantrum. Kelvyn, get a grip on yourself, we are I supposed to be debating where the police camp was at SBC.

You show all the signs of paranoia. You are attacking me and anyone who agrees with me BUT you do not put up your CSI teams 'Stuff Up'.

Yes, people can go out and buy your CSI@SBC book, but it is a lot of money that people don't want to spend, and you say that the proceeds go to the Glenrowan Improvers ? Ha, that's wonderful but I don't think they are over joyed with what they will ever receive, if ever they get it? Nice thought Kel. The Improvers have proven to be a useless bunch with no guts to keep lobbying the Govt for the required moneys to have a Ned Kelly Centre built. I did not see you at the Parliament house in Canberra or at Spring Street State Government House like we have on several occasions, to helping the Glenrowan Improvers like we have done for years.
You are a nasty piece of work that no longer has anyone's respect.

Yes Kelyvn, the CSI team and myself are amateurs when it comes to being a historian or archaeologist and I don't think you have any certificate to say you are any of those or any thing else.

You are nothing but a bumbling idiot in what should be a debate between grown persons deciding on a part of our history that has not been put to rest because of the likes of you.

When you post you cannot even differentiate between quotes from others and your dribble and no one can make sense of your position. If I were Dee I would classify you as the next serial forum pest, or were you that pest all along ? Good question that?

Unless you can come on this forum and put up a case without being derogative to me and anyone else please go away.

bill
Junior Member

Post by bill on Mar 27, 2014 at 6:35pm

Brendan,
Its lucky I have had some time today, but please explain what you are on about

You wrote
" Bill, the secret lies in 'go back' to the spring. 'Go Back', from whence they came! And approaching from the south, the little hill would have hidden their approach."

We are talking about Dan going back to the Spring.

I would have said Dan 'approaching from the north' for Dan to go south back to the spring.

You see you are not precise in what you write.

Do we agree the Kelly's came from the south ? down the creek to north ?

Do we agree if Dan went back to the spring, he is going back to south ?

Do we agree the little hill was in between the police tent camp and the spring up the creek south ? The very reason Dan was sent back south in case the returning police from the south.

Look everyone, if people posting are pedantic about every little detail, like I said this type of debate is a total waste of time.

Last Edit: Mar 27, 2014 at 6:41pm by bill

alex
Guest

Post by Guest on Mar 27, 2014 at 6:54pm

This is no longer a debate....... its a debacle.

Both sides need to calm down and get back to the facts of the matter.

Perhaps a picture or two of the CSI team's SPRING with an appropriate amount of water would be helpful.

Perhaps a concession from Bill Denheld that no self respecting bushman of 1878, (or anyone since then for that matter), would ever confuse a spring with a creek.

Dee
Administrator

Post by Dee on Mar 27, 2014 at 7:29pm

Bill you seem to be losing your normal "cool" tonight, and I don't think Kelvyn is the next forum pest, but I share your frustration at the reluctance of the CSI team to present any detail of their case and just constantly focus their attentions on yours. Maybe you should take that as a complement - perhaps they are nervous at what might happen if they were to wheel out their creation and expose it to the sort of relentless scrutiny yours is getting.

Now my head is spinning but I want to try to get some clarity now that I have looked again at those maps: The Gang approached the camp from the South, which means they would have gone past the source of the SBC, which is a spring. So they would have been coming down the creek and from higher ground. Sending Dan back to the Spring seems simple enough - he would have retraced their steps back up the creek, and to higher ground - but as we know the returning Police came from the opposite direction, they were coming back up the creek, from the north on the far side of the Campsite.

Now where exactly is the argument here? There is no reason that I can see why going back to the spring couldn't have been going back to the very start of the SBC. That long list of references to the "Creek" adds nothing to the debate - its not about whether the main body of the watercourse is a called a creek - nobody really disputes that do they? - but whether or not the start of the creek can be called a spring or does the spring have to be a completely separate and unrelated feature? I say it doesn't.

Again I ask am I missing something here?

The "Spring" debate seems manufactured to me. There is no need to postulate a spring as a separate feature. But maybe someone can explain why its not.

Last Edit: Mar 28, 2014 at 5:31am by Dee

Ashley
Guest

Post by Guest on Mar 27, 2014 at 7:45pm

Bill ...what a disgraceful comment, you have just made about many good people that live in Glenrowan that truly care about their community. Many of these " useless bunch" (your words) put time into fundraising, being a part of the local Lions Club and other support groups including supporting many families struggling in our community.
"The Improvers have proven to be a useless bunch with no guts " Bill Denheld




 

Brendon
Guest

Post by Guest on Mar 27, 2014 at 8:35pm

Bill the spring is on what you call the little hill. It is between the CSI site and yours much further to the south. Kelvyn is right and this is a waste of time, especially when we have Horrie talking nonsense and giving everyone else headaches, let alone himself.

Bill you stated;

"We are talking about Dan going back to the Spring."

I would have said Dan 'approaching from the north' for Dan to go south back to the spring.
Of course you would have said that as it fits your scenario. Ned said, “Bach to the spring”, because that is the way they came and to go to the ‘spring’, one would have to go back. You can’t get any simpler than that!

Dee you are certainly missing something (a lot actually), seeing as you ask. A spring is not a creek and Bill does not refer to the start of the creek being a spring, he refers to the creek itself as being the spring. The creek (or as Bill calls it, a spring), is the lowest point in the land formation, as water runs to the lowest point. Now I ask you, who would get a better vantage point (view), from the lowest point? This is ludicrous! There has also been plenty of posts explaining why a ‘spring’ is a ‘spring’ and a ‘creek’ is a ‘creek’! I fail to see what the difficulty is, as it is quite simple.

I also agree with Ashley and your comments about the Glenrowan Improvers Bill, are unwarranted and unfounded. You tried to highjack the Ned Kelly Interpretive Centre at Glenrowan and take over and alienated a lot of people.

Horrie
Guest

Post by Guest on Mar 27, 2014 at 8:46pm

Kelly people seem to carry a lot of baggage, and have great difficulty sticking to one subject without going off at a tangent.

Ashley, Bill did not mention your 'Lions Club', 'other support groups' or the 'many families struggling in our community'. You did.

I too have long wondered whether proceeds from the CSI book were ever distributed, and to whom. That was the gist of Bill's query.

Since the start of this thread, CSI have led us up and down the garden path - everywhere except where they think the police camp was.

I despair that Kelvyn and Glenn will ever cough up. Is it too late to get back on track? Where is the CSI police camp sit?

Brendon
Guest

Post by Guest on Mar 27, 2014 at 9:27pm

Horrie, you clearly do not comprehend how tight-knit country communities operate and support networks work. Bill, as you do now, insulted a whole community. Please keep your comments to things you know more about, though we are still not aware of what those things are!
 

Horrie
Guest

Post by Guest on Mar 27, 2014 at 9:45pm

I live in a Victorian country community, you pompous i___t!

My point was that Bill did not raise those community issues. Ashley did.

Yet you and Ashley blame Bill for things he did not say.

Brendon, Kelvyn and Glenn, find a small card. Write 'Provide valid info about CSI site' and stick it on your pc. This will remind you to stick to the point.

 

Brendon
Guest

Post by Guest on Mar 27, 2014 at 10:01pm

I find that extremely hard to believe Horrie, like everything you say. You certainly don't use words and phrases of a country Victorian. After some of the things you have posted and the people you have denigrated, do you really think you have the right to call someone else names, especially pompous? Time and time again, things have been explained to you and you just cannot comprehend what is being said. Take Kelvyn's advice, have a bex and a good 'lie' down.

PS. I just found something you are good at, name calling! It's not much of a claim to fame, but you gotta stick to what your good at.