This is a true copy of a forum debate about SBC where the Police were shot by the Kelly gang in 1878. These following 25 pages were lost when one of the participants complained to forum host ProBoards.com. Despite numerous efforts to have the whole forum re-instated by me, this topic was one of several threads on DEE's 'Ned Kelly Truth forum' that questioned the many mythologized elements of the Kelly story, and is the reason for much personal attack on those that may have alternative views of how Kelly history is recorded.
Bill Denheld May 2014


Man stands at fireplace of one of two huts, the police tent stood behind where this photo was taken.The Kelly gang came from left of little hill above.


The Great Debate about Stringy-Bark Creek  
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Kelvyn
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Dee, No the posting you say came from me did not.
I don't have to resort to hiding.
It is a pity perhaps that you don't have knowledge of much background about the protagonists because there sure as hell is a saga of Mr Denheld's wanton ways of making quite scurrilous comment - this forum simply shows his latest efforts:
Go back and read his derogatory remarks about Mr Linton Briggs, see his reference to the FAT lady, and see his recent tirade (diatribe) aimed at the CSI team and the Glenrowan Improvers people.
The man is unable to come to grips with his failing to influence the committee (and being excluded from it) that made the current site known as the camp site, together with the extensive works at Stringybark to guide visitors to it.
He has also failed dismally in getting what he calls the Interpretive Centre erected at Glenrowan, and now he impugns the people of Glenrowan and of course the four members of the CSI team in his recent rant, of which there will be more said and pursued in due course.
No apology is seen for any of these slanderous matters, YET.
And Dee the postings I made about the possible Trojan/malware/virus were in good faith - I have no need to destroy your forum in such a way, its destroying itself as you say you will shut it down if matters don't improve.
Ask around about the many preceding forums that have either been shutdown or curtailed/ banned individuals who did not honour the terms of use for that forum. And ask why is it so.
I make it quite clear that I will respond to derogatory/slanderous/libellous/ comment and (as I had to do in a past forum) seek and obtain a retraction of such wording.
It is pointless in a non-administered forum where it is an open free-for-all approach. A lack of admin/moderation is an invitation for the type of rubbish peddled and Horrie is a prime example of this way.
So sorry Dee but postings of substance from the CSI team (TEAM = noun: a number of persons associated in some joint action: This is for Horrie's info)will dry up and further material placed in one or both of the administered/moderated forums active.
I do have a small further posting to follow, and one as I expressed above in the coming days after due assessment by others has been completed.

 

Kelvyn
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Toombullup: The beginning of ‘The end of an Era’
November 1947 Big Protest Meeting by Residents of Tolmie Tablelands.
The meeting was sponsored by the Tolmie Tablelands branch of the Victorian Potato and Onions Growers Association.
A branch of Ryans Creek rises in Exton’s land and runs through Herman’s, and small streams run through Brond’s (Equinox) and Beasley’s (Stringybark) and empty into Ryans Creek. The other farms obtain their water from springs or wells.
Reproduced courtesy of Sheila Hutchinson – Text from Heritage and History on My Doorstep (1999) Pp 117.

Two streams specifically identified!!

 

 

Horrie
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O M G - this thread has been going for F I V E long, gruelling weeks...

Bill put up his Two Huts presentation without the slightest fuss, and has politely updated as needed.

We are still waiting for the CSI police camp site & location of the CSI police camp spring. Non-CSI member Brendon tried to help out.

Kelyvn and Glenn, you have led us on a wild goose chase, desperately avoiding putting your 'stuff up' up here.

Kelvyn you don't read posts carefully and come up with even more misleading garbage that has to be patiently explained to you.

Dee did not say she was planning to shut down the forum - just this thread where you, Kelvyn, have been wasting our time.

Your posts are wordy, monotonous and misleading. You have done anything and everything except tell us where the CSI police camp is.

Kelvyn parrots 'karma's' misidentification frauds too. I invite you to provide proof I am not 100% Aussie.

Kelvyn, please dry up and head elsewhere. The internet is already littered with endless forums CSI has ruined and debased.

 

Dee
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Ive just deleted two posts from Brendon because he is once again attacking people. Lets not descend into nonsense about who is 100% Australian. You've only got 5 pages left to debate this topic so I suggest you don't waste the space on attacking each other. Does anyone have a new aspect of the SBC debate to discuss?

 

Glenn
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Post by Guest on 12 hours ago


Horrie,

you have said the following.

Above post:

We are still waiting for the CSI police camp site & location of the CSI police camp spring.
previously

Appendix 11 of the CSI July 2011 report shows the spring 50 yards from SBC Rd, and the police camp more than 120 yards from the picnic area.

The location of the camp is shown on the diagram (Appendix 11). So haven't you answered the question? That is if you know the location of the current Kelly tree.
Which I assume you do.  
Cheers

 

Glenn
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Dee,

FYI. I read what Brendon wrote, before you deleted it. I actually agree with much of what he said.

 

Horrie
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Dee, please remove my last post which was in response to Brendon's two posts now removed.

 

Horrie
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Glenn, thank you for your post regarding the correctness of the Appendix 11 sketch in the CSI July 2011 report.

I hope you won't mind me saying so, but I wish this had been been made available and verified five weeks ago.

 

Horrie
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Hey Brendon, where is the Kelly house near Lake Mokoan? What type of granite was used? What is chiselled in the doorstep?

If you don't respond quickly, I will think you are a huge bulldust artist and droopy drongo. You are a self-proclaimed pro-Kelly champ and should know the answers. Its not on the net, so this is over to you for speedy reply.

 

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Post by Dee on 10 hours ago

I've deleted all the irrelevant posts. Anybody got anything to post about SBC?

 

Horrie
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Oh, and just for real authenticity - which doorstep, Brendon? I've met* the owner, been inside for a cuppa, and photographed the place.

No, I won't post the images. They will be published one day.

C'mon Brendon and 'Karma' - time's a ticking!

* I'm being circumspect.

 

Horrie
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Dee, now that we know that the Appendix 11 sketch in the CSI July 2011 report is THE CSI site for the police camp:

* How far is it from the present carpark?
* Can ANYONE post a photo of the spring 50 yards from the SBC Road?
* There have been several Kelly trees, which one is this? How does it figure in the SBC story?
* Was there a track (now SBC Road) where the police tent is shown abutting the present road?
 

 

Horrie
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TIME OVER. Thats a massive F A I L on the Lake Mokoan Kelly house question, Brendon! You aren't half as smart as you say.

'Karma' hasn't responded with proof that 'Dee, Diana is a liar'. What a surprise! He never does.

Both these slackos are pro-Kelly propagandists, who want a fair go here.

GIVE US A BREAK!

 

Brendon
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Thank you Dee for deleting my posts AGAIN as it proves that what I said was 100% correct. Deleting my posts had nothing to do with Horrie pretending to be an Aussie. You didn’t like the tern ‘toxic anti-Kelly people’ because you were one of them! And couldn’t handle the hard questions and ran away. For those who missed my posts before they were deleted, here they are again.
 

#1. Horrie, don’t blame Kelvyn for your inability to read and decipher intellectual posts. Not everyone talks like a grade 3 kid. And I challenge you to prove you are 100% Aussie. Like on some other forums you use words that are not familiar in this country, yet are where Kelvyn has deduced you come from. You are clearly not a young bloke, yet seen bamboozled by some old Aussie sayings, which certainly doesn’t fit with being a country lad from Victoria, as you are conversing with experts in the local lingo.

Haven’t you noticed that since I posted that map showing the spring and how far Bill’s rock-pile is from there that he has gone walk-a-bout. You have been left red-faced and severely wanting on the intellect scale!  

#2. Dee, this is an anti-Kelly website and you call pro-Kelly people “toxic and vicious troll with no credibility”! Strangely enough you use a term that has been regularly used by pro-Kelly people to describe the anti-Kelly lobby on quite a few forums!

Pro-Kelly forums (of which there are far more of), have to put up with these ‘toxic trolls’, though their posts are not deleted, they are held accountable by the members. Even stranger is the fact that these ‘toxic trolls’, have only appeared on forum after the release of the book you all love and quote.

Have a look through your forum and you will see where your anti-Kelly supporters are replying to pro-Kelly supporters whose post, have been deleted, leaving threads nonsensical. Why do you delete posts? Haven’t you and your supporters got the intestinal fortitude and knowledge to debate the hard questions like the pro-Kelly sites do?

Bill has gone walk-a-bout and without the couple of pro-Kelly posters, you have no forum. Horrie will make sure of that as he is a Tool, though I must admit, he is one of the best I have come across.

P.S. We can’t say anything negative about Horrie, otherwise he breaks out in a nasty rash (nappy rash). .

 

 

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Brendon
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I've deleted he content of this post by Brendon because it contained disgraceful personal attacks, more of his absurd attempts to identify people and their origins age etc etc by their posts, lots of other rubbish and absolutely nothing about the SBC debate.  Dee

Last Edit: 18 hours ago by Dee

 

bill
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Post by bill

Horrie asks CSI team -
" How far from the present car park is the CSI site?,
Can anyone post a photo of the spring 50 yards from the SBC Road?
"There have been several Kelly trees, which one is this? How does it figure in the SBC story?"
Was there a track ( now SBC Road) where the police tent is shown abutting the present road?

Good lot of questions Horrie. The CSI team are not going to answer,- but I will.

I show this map again below. There was only one First Kelly tree -that was near the two huts site where the police had camped and where Scanlan was shot. He was some distance behind Kennedy when they approached back to the camp.

The second tree was just marked there as a convenient spot near the road by farmer Beasley. It was already dead, and when that tree fell over around late 1930s, the current Kelly tree was marked by Beasley's neighbour Tim Brond, Sheila Hutchinson's father, They lived near Equinox Creek which also has a spring along its gully feeding the creek.

Tim Brond axed out a large slab of bark and carved into the soft wood the names of the three dead police- the tree becoming a living memorial to them, but many years later, 1970s a local artist Leo Wentworth placed the current Kelly mask and breast plate into the tree scare left over after the names became illegible, and that changed the tree to become known as the current Kelly tree. This tree, nor the second has anything to do with SBC story.

The 804 metre mark along the road, I had identified this as where the 'Hut on the 1884 Map' had supposedly stood according to the surveyor six years after the event, the CSI team now want to use this 800 metre mark as some sort of proof evidence for where the Police were killed by Kellys.
The amazing thing is the CSI team also reckon this third K tree is somewhere in the Burman photo. Brrrrr, I shake my head.

More to follow.

http://www.ironicon.com.au/images/SBC38.jpg

 

Last Edit: 18 hours ago by bill

 

bill
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 Post by bill

Horrie asks CSI for a photo of their spring 50 yards from the SBC road ?
They won't, but I certainly can.

Also Kelvyn quotes from Sheila's book - Heritage and History on my Doorstep, confirming continuos streams running through Brond's and Beasley's properties whereas the other farms obtain their water from springs or wells.

Kelvyn, would then suggest the 'other farmers' if they did not have access to 'streams' they would be reliant on water from a spring, obviously one very similar to the one the CSI team want you to believe is - such a spring?
First I show you the Appendix 11 map CSI@SBC report.

Notice Spring discharge point

www.ironicon.com.au/images/csi-at-sbc-linton-site-map2.jpg

http://www.ironicon.com.au/images/csi-at-sbc-linton-site-map2.jpg



http://www.ironicon.com.au/images/csi-spring-location.jpg
www.ironicon.com.au/images/csi-spring-location.jpg  Click for full size image

Now take a look where they say their spring is?
Ned Kelly sent Dan back to the spring. This above image is looking from West to East.

Visualise where 'I' the photographer stands -behind that big log ( which is actually straight but looks bent). I rotate from north right round back to north again. The area is nothing more than the old SBC bench gravels left over from when SBC ran there thousands of years ago. The bench gravels hold a bit of water when there is a bit of rain and hill side runoff during wetter months. However to call this spring is just ludicrous, just as the whole CSI scenario is.
 

Last Edit: 18 hours ago by bill

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Post by bill

Dee, on 30 March you wrote-
I will declare a Draw, and you will be forced to start thinking about other facets of the story instead of always discussing this one small detail."

Dee, If you declare a Draw, I would find that a complete waste of my time as there has not yet been any contest or debate. The strategy of the CSI team is for us all to get tired of them and even start deleting there non sense postings, as then they will be let off the hook.

On another post you said my postings are convincing, but not conclusive? May I ask you and the readers just one question about the CSI teams location for the police camp at SBC, ask yourself 'Can I, when near the Kelly tree take a photo there with a 'SLOPE' in the back ground? Answer ?
You can not.

Dee, it’s as fundamental as taking a photo of a scene with a strong landmark. Ask someone at a later time to identify exactly where that photo could have been taken? There will be only one place. That is how conclusive the Burman photo is with the real site at the SBC two huts site.

If for no other reason to be convinced about where the real site is,
its that slope. The slope is the cruncher here, everyone glosses over this fundamental fact, if there is no slope there like in the Burman photo then that cannot be the site - end of story.

Dee, I can sympathise with you having to deal with these irritating posters that add nothing except abuse like graffiti artists defacing public property. Perhaps you have to keep deleting all the irrelevant posts, or make it easier by just making this NK Truth forum for members only who can post.

Bill

Last Edit:  by bill

 

Horrie
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Thanks for all those posts, Bill. I agree there is no draw. Amazing, the amount of effort CSI put into deceiving us all.

(But thank you Glenn for your posts yesterday confirming Appendix 11).

Brendon (Fitzy) that was a truly contemptible post about my father. You imagine you know everything about everything, you gutless mad piece of garbage.
 

 

 

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Post by Dee

Bill would it be better if I declare a Truce?

You are right, I find it very frustrating to see the argument going round and round in circles, and then to discover how many years these exact same debates have been going on and on for. I think everyone has had many opportunities to persuade the others of their case and I think if that hasn't happened by now then its never going to happen. And when it degenerates into personal abuse the whole thing just becomes ridiculous.

Whatever I declare, your time has not been wasted. You've put together a fantastic website with tons of fascinating posts and detailed information, diagrams and charts and maps that I am sure thousands of people have already enjoyed reading and gone away persuaded and informed, maybe even inspired to become amateur or even professional historians and publishers like you and Carla. You have every right to be proud of what you have contributed to the Kelly story and the way you have created such interest in the site at which those brave Policemen were murdered. I feel its a shame you and the rest of the CSI team had a falling out because there is still more material out there that you could be unearthing instead of remaining bogged down on this one subject, important though it is. Another great Pic by the way!

I wish the CSI team would do something similar with their Proposal, and put it all up for every interested person to view and decide for themselves. I too would like to see their Photos of something that resembles the Burman photos and of course , their Spring.

 

 

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Post by bill

Dee, I have just shown you their spring !
There is no spring unless a dribble off the road side bank constitues a spring ? -
This picture is their SPRING source. There is no water to be seen, what a joke.

www.ironicon.com.au/images/csi-spring-location.jpg  click link for full size image



Dee, this is not about a truce or a hold off for the time being.


These people are not worthy of debate. They innately know they are wrong but cannot recognise their way out when presented to them.
I held back for years so everyone would forget their stupid decisions following Linton Briggs's scenario.

I should mention, Carla and I drove up to Glenrowan to speak to Linton especially and for no other reason, as we were respectful following our last meeting with him at SBC. After a few phone calls we realised we were not taken seriously. We drove up to show him why his location was wrong. It was a round trip of 500 km. On the way we went by SBC to take some crucial photos that showed him there was no slope near Kelly tree site.

We met at the old police station at Glenrowan opposite the 'Siege site' and showed him the pictures on our laptop why there was no slope at the Kelly tree site. Despite an hour of scientific analysis and sketches on paper to show why he was wrong,  - - - we just had to leave for home.

It was not long after this we received a letter from Linton that said that the ' CSI-Team' had decided 'I' was no longer a team member, and that He said I should write my own independent findings on SBC, - which I did.

I feel sorry for Gary, Glenn and Kelvyn and who were all duped , one for being a good friend, but the other two because they must have thought 'its better to be on the winning team side by numbers' than to rely on scientific proof, as obviously they don't really have any conviction except to have support from the others. That's why they don't put anything up!

Even when they were asked to present their case at the 2012 Beechworth NK Festival they were on the back foot. Linton did not turn up, and neither did Gary Dean to rescue them.

I think this whole SBC scenario by this CSI Team is a sorry affair.  However, any weight by numbers is no sign of truth. I do not wish to be sidelined by miss truths and despicable face saving idiots who do not present their case.

Again, we have to look at the past when a person who does not wish to be identified Poorflower re opens the CSI debacle just after Peter Fitzsimons Ned Kelly book came out. Isn't that a co incident? I know who Poor flower is and so do the CSI team, or if they don't they deserve to be again tangled up in all this stuff that in the end will make them look even more STUPID than idiots.

Bill
 

 

 

More to come in due course
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